#1 Do you like it? by Pink-Camel 29.03.2012 22:48


The opinions on the subject of bootlegs are very different.
Some demonize them, others collect them diligently as documentation of the live performances of their favorite band. And still others make a lot of money.

If even bootlegs, then others should not enrich it. This is to be exchanged among bootleg collectors is also a matter of course.

Often, the quality leaves much to be desired recording, but over the years, the recordings have become better and better.

Well, what do you think about bootlegs?

#2 RE: Do you like it? by Apollo2112 31.03.2012 03:15

I love bootlegs. I sincerely think that anyone who is an opposer of bootlegging must either be an idiot, or not fully understand it. By bootlegging, I mean of course free trading like DIME, bootleg blogs, etc.

Now, I will NEVER pay for a bootleg. NEVER. If the band doesn't get any money, I ain't paying!

#3 RE: Do you like it? by Spirit-on-the-Water 31.03.2012 09:15


I've got some bootlegs on vinyl and a few as CDs. It's not essential for me but it's something special. It depends on the sound whether I like it or not.

#4 RE: Do you like it? by longtalleric 02.04.2012 10:17


I've been collecting boots since the late 80s. The vinyls were pretty expensive, mostly too expensive for me, so I traded tapes and borrowed LP's to record them onto tape. Later, early-mid nineties, bootleg CD's appeared that became a bit more affordable. Mid-late 90's internet became more important to do tape trades, later CD-R trades, and now mainly online trades.

It's a way of being a fan IMHO. I think it's very interesting to hear different versions of music that's so wellknown. It's almost impossible for a band to release everything because there's just a niche of fans interested in "everything". That's why I think it's great when bands allow bootlegs to a certain extent.

#5 RE: Do you like it? by Spirit-on-the-Water 04.04.2012 17:48


What about the legality of Camel-bootlegs? How does Andy Latimer deal with it? If it's definitely legal, what is the best way to become an owner of some bootlegs?

#6 RE: Do you like it? by longtalleric 05.04.2012 20:14


About the legality of Camel bootlegs...

First of all:

Selling bootlegs is bad. If you sell bootlegs, you make a profit of someone else's work. IMO this borders stealing.

Buying bootlegs is... not smart. But I'm aware that some people don't know about (internet) communities where bootlegs are freely shared, or maybe they think it's all too difficult, so they choose to pay a price just to save from this 'hassle'. IMO, this is not smart because
A. you're paying for something that is available for free (possibly in better quality) and
B. you're encouraging the sellers. See my point 1.

Bootlegs exist. People record shows and these recordings are being distributed. This is a given. I think that free distribution (trade or giveaway for free) is the only fair way. This way, the band doesn't get hurt - the recording being shared is something the band wouldn't profit from anyway (as they didn't release it themselves), and the more people share for free, the less there will be a market for selling bootlegs.

Now I can't speak for Andy of course, but I guess his take is in line with point 3: free distribution is OK.
Not that he actively encourages it, but I'm sure he understands how fans value rare recordings that haven't been officially released.
This appears so by the fact that he included some real *bootleg* footage (from 1992) on the "Footage" DVD, which shows me that Andy recognizes the value of this recording.
Also, the liner notes in "Gods of Light" seem to hint at this opinion.

#7 RE: Do you like it? by got the hump 24.04.2012 19:34

My impression has always been that Andy is rather hostile towards bootlegs. On the old Rajaz forum, the subject was actually banned from discussion because, the moderators said, they feared it would damage their relationship with CP. This is a pity. In my view, bootlegs can be good advertisments for the band as well as a valuable way of retaining interest in periods when there are no official releases. When a band sounds as good live as Camel does, they also help to reinforce reputation. For an important sector of fans (the die-hards) supressing bootlegs is almost equivelent to supressing enthusiasm. Look how well the official Genesis forum flourished when Bill McCormick put up a bootleg section with the message that it was OK to trade and collect. Look at how their die-hard online fanbase has all but disappeared since they shut it down. Come on Camel, connect with your fanbase and acclaim your own unoffficial live legacy! ;)

#8 RE: Do you like it? by longtalleric 24.04.2012 20:09


About the same thing happened with Porcupine Tree. They quite suddenly changed from a very taper-friendly band into a very taper-unfriendly band. I know this has scared a lot of fans away.

#9 RE: Do you like it? by Pink-Camel 24.04.2012 22:51


Each "steadfast" Fan tries to get his favorite band a little closer. First, you buy each LP and single, and later CDs.

As the number of official records, such as here at Camel, very clearly, it is understandable that the Camel fan to collect bootlegs.

There are, as I mentioned, enough strip material owned by Camel.

Would an x-arbitrary Camel bootleg released at one time in a better quality of CP, this would almost certainly buy a lot more fans.

I would buy this at any time, even if I would present as a bootleg.

CP should not sulk but finally act!

#10 RE: Do you like it? by got the hump 24.04.2012 23:24

I do have sympathy and respect for CP wanting to maintain a high quality audio standard for their releases. Even so:
a) A more liberal attitude towards unofficial recordings is better for their relationship with the fanbase
b) Bands like Marillion, King Crimson, Queen etc have all successfully managed "archive club" releases which are bought and sold on the understanding that theyt are generally lower quality sources.

#11 RE: Do you like it? by Pink-Camel 25.04.2012 00:01


Yes, a little more understanding of bootlegs would have a very positive good.

On the one hand, there are professionally produced and traded bootlegs,
Unfortunately, the wrong people deserve it, because if they were authorized, the CP would also deserve it.

This would be a win-win situation. How can we make ourselves strong fans for an authorization?

With the present attitude of CP, they have missed a part of revenue and their own fans were posted on the sidelines. That is very unfortunate.

#12 RE: Do you like it? by got the hump 25.04.2012 08:49

Realistically I don't think there is anything we can do about it Michael, just keep on producing and appreciating for our own enjoyment. In terms of the mainstream music market, 99.5% of bootlegs are not of standard professional quality. Those of us that really appreciate them are looking for other things rather than production values - authenticity, performance skills, reliving the concert experience etc. Something Clinton Haylin calls "the bootleg aesthetic" in his superb book "Great White Wonder". Either you buy into this "bootleg aesthetic" or you do not. It is commonplace for artists to distance themselves from the bootleg aesthetic because it is associated with a lowering of standards in their minds and often too in the minds of the general public. From our perspective, the world misses out on some great performances and musical arrangements, as well as that elusive 0.5% which does achieve professional production standards.

#13 RE: Do you like it? by longtalleric 25.04.2012 09:17


I'm not sure if Andy really is hostile towards bootlegs. I'm not saying he's not, I just don't know. Was this ever asked on the old Rajaz forum? Maybe David Minasian (who sometimes attended that forum, if I'm not mistaken) ever answered that question?

#14 RE: Do you like it? by got the hump 25.04.2012 10:55

Well the mods stated that CP had requested that they do not discuss bootlegs, and there was a general impression on the forum that Andy and Susan did not like bootlegs. But that's all I really know, maybe I'll go back through some interviews and look for clues as a nice weekend project sometime soon :)

#15 RE: Do you like it? by got the hump 25.04.2012 11:05

Camel newsletter July 1992:-

Thanks to all who have informed us of the many bootlegs that are presently circulating. Obviously, we're not too happy about this and to combat it, we are offering our own "official" CAMEL bootleg - Camel On The Road, 1972, a small collection of the band's repertoire from nearly 20 years ago featuring the original line-up. Our way of beating the bootleggers is to undercut them and offer it cheap!

#16 RE: Do you like it? by longtalleric 25.04.2012 11:45


That sounds like they're against selling bootlegs.
I couldn't agree more with that.
Beat the bootleggers by offering the same recordings for free (among traders) or cheap (from CP).

#17 RE: Do you like it? by got the hump 25.04.2012 12:03

True, just a part of the picture I posted cos it is relevant to the theme.
Notice though that it uses the ambiguous term "circulating" rather than explicitly stating it is the act of selling which is being disapproved.

#18 RE: Do you like it? by longtalleric 25.04.2012 12:45


That may be because they weren't aware (at the time?) that there's also something like bootleg trading. I know that many people don't know about this concept and are under the assumption that only commercial bootlegs (silver pressed or vinyl) are the only existing bootlegs. While in reality, nowadays those bootlegs are very often sourced from internet downloads.
(maybe even mp3! argh)

#19 RE: Do you like it? by got the hump 25.04.2012 12:54

Maybe, though I would imagine Andy et al would be pretty familiar with the concept of tape trading which has been in progress all through their career. More likely I think that they just feel that uncontrolled material threatens both repuation and bottom line profits. A common and understandable attitude whatever the evidence we material-starved fans might believe to the contrary.

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