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#1 Official live releases by longtalleric 10.04.2012 22:02

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On the 2002 and 2009 remasters, there were some live bonus tracks from several gigs (f.i. October 1974, Marquee, London, and April 1976, Hammersmith, London, to name just a few).

I think I remember reading somewhere that these releases were done by the record company without Andy's approval, and I also think I remember Andy said he'd rather had released the entire concerts instead of just some snippets.

Wow. How cool would that be?! Professional quality recordings from these gigs...

#2 RE: Official live releases by Pink-Camel 10.04.2012 22:48

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I'm wondering for years why no other Camel released concert recordings. Certainly there is no doubt that there is too little professional material. Camel shuns the effort, because this may not be proportionate to the income is? As long as there are Camel fans, concert recordings should be released by Camel.
My suggestions: "The early canterbury years" or "Made in Japan"
The imagination knows no limits.

#3 RE: Official live releases by longtalleric 11.04.2012 09:26

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Well, as the "Moondances" DVD is labeled "best seller" on the Camel Productions website, I guess it sold pretty well. :)
This is the kind of DVD I'd like to see more of (preferably without the faked widescreen image). Same goes for audio; many great sounding recordings must exist (based on the inclusion of the bonus tracks on the remasters), so why not release these complete gigs?
I think Andy would like to do so, but he's unable to, for some reason or another (copyrights or something).

#4 RE: Official live releases by Pink-Camel 11.04.2012 12:51

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Yes, it's time for new releases, as you suggested it. Please no more compilation, this is an insult to every fan

Camel is the farewell tour has also officially disbanded? Did I miss anything?

#5 RE: Official live releases by ProphetInTheWind 13.04.2012 04:06

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In all honesty, I don't care what era it's from, I would just like some new Camel material... live, studio, acoustic, anything, please!

#6 RE: Official live releases by Pink-Camel 13.04.2012 11:34

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YES, thats right!!!

#7 RE: Official live releases by longtalleric 13.04.2012 12:39

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Agreed, of course. But I'm only assuming here... wouldn't it be easier for CP to release these live gigs that partly appeared on the remasters? I mean, obviously the recordings exist already. They'd probably only need to be remastered and can be released. This will also keep the fans quiet while the band is working on new material. :)

#8 RE: Official live releases by Apollo2112 16.04.2012 02:25

I would love some new material!

#9 RE: Official live releases by got the hump 23.04.2012 19:09

Problem is that Decca (now Universal) own the multitracks to all that bonus material. CP would have to license the material which means a chunk of the profits go to Universal and I bet they'd want a nice large chunk. On the other hand Universal being large and corporate probably do not envisage sizeable profits from a "new" retrospective live release. Either that or maybe it would require a fresh contract with CP - not sure about that. Hence Universal used it as bonus material to leverage more sales on those albums already under contract. Not surprised Andy L was not pleased with the bonus material as he will see only nominal royalties from the re-releases. So it is the usual stalemate.

Without multitracks, quality becomes a real issue and CP have always been wary of compromising on quality because it directly affects reputation. This is why CP archive releases have drawn heavily on the BBC recordings which are now exhausted. The one notable exception is On The Road 1982, which was sourced from a soundboard tape. Ironic because most of that show was recorded on multitrack for Dutch radio, though the mastertape is lost. Quality of the 1982 CD is quite acceptable, but I would not take it for granted that similar quality recordings exist for earlier years. Anyone familiar with Genesis soundboard tapes leaked from The Farm will understand that quality of recording and preservation of older cassettes is extremely patchy.

Another thing to note is that if you analyse the bonus tracks released by Universal you find that maybe they do not have very much more material. The full show of Hammersmith 1976 is released; all from the RAH 1975; pretty much the full setlist from the Marquee 74 shows; maybe half of the Bristol 1977 show. All that leaves a questionmark over Leeds/London 1977 which are represented by one track only (if you trust the cover notes which contain some inconsistencies), the other half of Bristol 1977, and possible duplicate songs from the two Marquee 1974 shows.

Dream scenario would be for Camel to start to release some soundboard tapes without too much fussing around on remastering and packaging. But after the fiasco of the stillborn Genesis archive tapes projects I do not hold out much hope.

#10 RE: Official live releases by Pink-Camel 23.04.2012 19:17

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That was a great post.

Granted, I would not know that much detail.
Where did you get this knowledge? What sources do you use?

The hope for new releases but we will not give up.

Thank you

#11 RE: Official live releases by got the hump 23.04.2012 20:17

Thanks Michael. It's possible to deduce much of that from what is already released, but also I've been following the band and bootlegs for a long time, some exchanges with David Minasian who produced the CP DVDs have also been interesting. Some friends in the BBC have done some trawling for info over the years. The big questionmark is over what Decca/Universal might have in their vaults, but I think it is unlikely they would have something interesting and not exploited it in some way during the release of the 2002 then 2008 remasters.

#12 RE: Official live releases by ProphetInTheWind 24.04.2012 19:54

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Well the fact that there is some great sounding live material from 1972 even is amazing, and I just wish that Camel could get the rights to their own music. It's a sad world where artists have nearly no control over their own property (or what SHOULD BE their property).

#13 RE: Official live releases by got the hump 24.04.2012 23:13

Hi ProphetInTheWind. Ah yes On The Road 1972. Well in point of fact I discovered when it was released that this material is none other than the Electric Ladyland 19-Nov-1974 recording. AGAIN CP rely on a multitrack recording made for radio play, that is why it sounds so good. I made this known on Genesis forum "other bands" section once and a couple of regulars there took offence saying I was calling Andy Lat a liar! Of course I intend nothing of the kind, merely pointing out a plain fact that the two recordings are one and the same; as can be independently verified by anyone who has both sources and a pair of ears. Whether CP had a motive to disguise the origin or were simply in possession of an unlabelled tape is something I have no knowledge about. I'd love to know if Camel supplied the mastertape or if they got a copy from the radio station. Anyway pretty cool to have Arubaluba on the boot and some song intros that are missing from the CP release.

#14 RE: Official live releases by longtalleric 25.04.2012 09:20

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Maybe they mislabeled it on purpose to leave us trade the "unreleased" recording... ;)

#15 RE: Official live releases by got the hump 25.04.2012 10:39

Yah, of course that will be the reason LTE ;)

While we're on the subject of 19-Nov-1974, anyone here got the version which includes Freefall on the end?
I never did get around to tracking a copy down with that extra song.

#16 RE: Official live releases by longtalleric 25.04.2012 11:48

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I have 4 versions of this recording, but none of them has Freefall. :(

#17 RE: Official live releases by got the hump 25.04.2012 12:07

Same here! I was on the point of arranging something with scottstrades but had an enforced break at the crucial moment :(

#18 RE: Official live releases by longtalleric 15.05.2012 20:54

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On the 2002 remaster of "Camel", we find "Homage to the God of Light", recorded at the Marquee, London, UK on October 29th, 1974.

On the 2002 remaster of "Mirage", we find "Supertwister", "Mystic Queen" and "Arubaluba", recorded at the Marquee, London, UK on October 30th, 1974.

According to P-C's Tour Table, Camel did play both dates at the Marquee.
So, were both dates recorded? Or would the record company have made a small mistake with one of the recording dates?

#19 RE: Official live releases by got the hump 16.05.2012 10:41

Plus songs on Snow Goose 2002 credited to 30th Oct:
Rhayader Goes To Town
Snow Goose/Freefall
And the two songs on all versions of A Live Record credited on the 2002 remaster as 30th Oct:
Ligging At Louis
Lady Fantasy

But note that in the Snow Goose 2002 liner notes, Mark Powell states Camel did two nights at the Marquee giving the dates as 30th September and 1st October. And the back cover of Camel 2002 states God Of Light was recorded on 29th October whereas the liner notes state 30th October. So I don't trust the liner notes.

My current thinking on the date(s) is that Camel only actually played ONLY 29th and the liner notes are in error. Evidence is this Marquee ad posted on the Rajaz forum. Note from the ad that they were making the recording for "American Radio" though I don't think in the end there was a broadcast from this gig. Perhaps they decided to record the Electric Ladyland instead so the Americans could hear one of their own shows.

cheers GTH

#20 RE: Official live releases by longtalleric 16.05.2012 12:49

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Wow, thank you GTH, for your excellent answer and evidence!
I guess Michael has another update to do on his website. :)

#21 RE: Official live releases by got the hump 16.05.2012 13:52

A pleasure to add my small contributions.

Other liner note anomalies include "A Live Record" 2002 remaster mistakes. Hammersmith Odeon 1977 is attributed to 30th October 1977, whereas the Rain Dances tour program lists the date as 1st October 1977 and similarly Leeds attributed to 3rd October whereas the tour program lists 5th October (with Birmingham listed for 3rd). Although it is possible they added another Hammersmith date, I still think it likely they would make pro recordings of shows close together to minimise inconvenience and expense.

Furthermore the back cover lists Chord Change as being from 1977, but gets the correct year 1976 in the liner. And Never Let Go is attributed on the 2002 remaster as being from Bristol but on the original release it is listed as Hammersmith (they are certainly the same recording).

So frustrating that record labels pay such little attention to detail. We've come to expect it of bootleg producers but I hate having to trawl for accurate info from the official releases.

cheers GTH

#22 RE: Official live releases by longtalleric 16.05.2012 14:34

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I'm not sure, but I seem to remember that the date on the Moondances DVD for the 1976 concert is wrong, as well.

We could make a thread "corrected recording dates on official releases" or something... :)

#23 RE: Official live releases by Pink-Camel 16.05.2012 14:47

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Dear Friends,

I do not really now become, what source I can not trust at all. I'll leave this with the two dates, until proven otherwise.

If someone wants to help me there, then I guess any help to you!

Thank you

PC

#24 RE: Official live releases by got the hump 16.05.2012 14:59

I doubt if we will find further proof either way Michael, I suppose we must each draw our own conclusions.

The Moondances DVD gives the correct info (Hammersmith Odeon 14-Apr-1976) but the TVE broadcasts produced some confusion by putting a notice at the start saying "ESPECIAL CAMEL 15-6-1977, edited from the release. I think this may have been the original broadcast date.

#25 RE: Official live releases by longtalleric 16.05.2012 15:40

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The CP Webshop lists these gigs being from 17 April 1976 and 22 September 1977.
I knew something was wrong with these dates... :)

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